Mans Will

[vir7uous]

For those who were unable to be there, we had a fantastic conversation after the bible study Thursday night. The concept of ‘Mans Free-Will’ came up, the argument was, that man has some ‘free-will’ choice to either, accept or decline the offer of eternal life, offered through Christ. That is that God self-limits himself and allows man to freely accept or decline the gospel. Below is my argument, and I would say the biblical argument against such thinking.

I will put forward two thesis questions later, but before that we must understand what the bible says about the natural state of fallen man. I will summarize it under two headings. (the vast majority of my summary is taken from A New systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, Robert Reymond)

Total Depravity

Definition: “Man in his raw, natural state as he comes from the womb is morally and spiritually corrupt in disposition and character. Every part of his being—his mind, his will, his emotions, his affections, his conscience, his body—has been affected by sin (this is what is meant by the doctrine of total depravity)”

See.

Gen 6:5-6
Gen 8:21
1 Kings 8:46
Psalm 14:1-3
Psalm 51:5
Psalm 58:3
Psalm 130:3
Psalm 143:2
Eccl 7:20
Eccl 9:3
Is 53:6
Is 64:6
Jer 17:9
Luke 11:13
John 5:42
Romans 1:29-32
Romans 3:9-23
Gal 3:22
Eph 2:1-3
Eph 4:17-19
1 John 1:8, 10
1 John 5:19

Total Inability

“Because man is totally or pervasively corrupt, he is incapable of changing his character or of acting in a way that is distinct from his corruption. He is unable to discern, to love, or to choose the things that are pleasing to God.”

See

Matt 7:18
John 3:3-5
John 6:44, 65
John 14:17
John 15:4-5
Romans 8:7-8
1 Cor 2:14
1 Cor 12:3
James 3:8
Rev 14:3

Thus from “these two human conditions (depravity and inability) demonstrate that man in his natural state is not only morally and spiritually corrupt but also incapable of understanding, the affections, and the will to act which, taken together, enable one to be subject to the law of God, to respond to the gospel of grace, to appreciate the things of the Spirit, to do those things which are well-pleasing in God’s sight, and to love God.”

Before you read the questions, please take time to understand the doctrines stated above.

Question 1

You and a friend, both non Christians, hear a gospel presentation together. You respond in saving faith in Christ, while your friend did not. Why did you respond in saving faith while your friend did not?


Question 2

Can fallen man in his natural state do anything pleasing in the eyes of God?

Yes? Explain…

No…

Would you consider repentance from sin and professing faith in Christ pleasing in the eyes of God?

No? Explain…

Yes…

In John 3:3 Jesus says “ unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God”

2a: Can you repent and believe before being born again?

2b: Who ‘Borns you again’?

Let’s start the discussion there…

[Disench4nted]

... got to go to school, but i've been waiting for this post vir7. I thought you'd forgotten about it!

I'll read it when i get home.

[Talon]

I think too often we put a limit on our wondrous God by trying to separate which simplified category we and him truly fit into. If anyone has not seen the Everything Spiritual video by Rob Bell, I would highly recommend it. Another person who is a strict free will supporter could come up with verse after verse as well and then claim that he has the biblical argument on his side also. A weird thing to think about is what if we have free will but a non-self-limiting God who plans our our lives at the same time? How is that possible? I don't know. I am a fallen man beyond the understanding of God. If we try and prove that one theory is more correct and therefore more righteous, then aren't we setting limits on an infinite God? Sorry, not trying to bash you or anything, but these are my opinions on free will vs. "predestination". Any PMs are welcome!

-Talon

[Disench4nted]

Well, as promised, i read it (and enjoyed the flashbacks to thursday btw) and my answers remain the same.

Q1: This is definitely the tougher of the two and is the stickyest for me to answer. But i would say that it is because i chose to respond to the push of the Holy Spirit while my friend didn't. SO I am no longer in my natural state of depravity, the Holy Spirit has influenced me, while not forcing me, and i chose to respond.

Q2: A: No
B: Yes.
a: you repent/believe to be born again. (John 1:12) Because they (we) believed and received Him, He gave us the right to be called Children of God.

b: God borns, bears, (whatever the past tense of born is??) us again by giving to us the gift of eternal life and making us his children.

[vir7uous]

Real quick, and ill respond more tonight....

I think too often we put a limit on our wondrous God by trying to separate which simplified category we and him truly fit into.

We/I do this because this is exactly what God has done for us. It's called the Bible. Our infinite Holy God has graciously condescend to our wretched level to tell us who we are and who He is in his Holy and inspired word. We are commanded to know, teach, debate, argue etc this word (Matt. 28:18-20, also see Acts) at the highest level.

I really think youre getting at a bigger issue (the justification of theology as an intellectual discipline) which i may address later.

Well, as promised, i read it (and enjoyed the flashbacks to thursday btw) and my answers remain the same.

Thanks for your response. Those were definitely loaded questions I asked and i commend you for the time you were willing to take with them. Ill write up a response at work and post later tonight.

[Disench4nted]

I mean, Talon. While "Everything Essential is Clear" definitely holds true, and we are always called to not be at odds with our Christian brothers...that does not mean we are not to explore and debate these topics!

If we try and prove that one theory is more correct and therefore more righteous, then aren't we setting limits on an infinite God?

NO definitely NOT! God is an infinite God, and because of that He decided exactly how things were to work, there IS only ONE correct answer to these "categories". We told to "Have a reason for the hope that is within us." 1 Peter 3:15 And that is what we are doing.

Also, which seems more attractive to you, Being a "Christian" and believing in a God who all you really know about Him is that he loves you and died for you.

OR

Would you rather actually know WHO your God is, how He thinks (as best as we can understand), and what exactly His promises mean? When we are delving into these types of discussions, we are not doing it (solely) for the pleasure of having an interesting debate. We are applying our human intelligence and abilities to try and grasp the very nature of God! I personally want to know every in and out of His character, what makes Him tick, what He hates. I want to KNOW God, not just believe in Him. I want to be as close to literally walking with Him as I possibly can!

Philippians 2:12 Here Paul tells us to work out our faith meaning we are to at least attempt understand every aspect of the Faith.

[Talon]

That is true but I get tired of people endlessly saying that they are right about predestination or free will. It can't be one or another or we would not face the struggles with doubt that we do or it would say that God has no idea how our lives are going to unfold. He is beyond time and can move freely throughout it.

[NeoJabez]

I think Talon's point is valid in it's way.

We can debate and choose to "sit down and reason together", but when one camp is certain beyond all doubt that is it correct, it's no longer a debate. It becomes two faiths in conflict.

We do not want to debate anything of God to the point of conflict when instead we should understand we only know small parts of God's whole design for Creation, for us, and for eternity. Let's not EVER go so far as to say we are CERTAIN beyond all shadow of a doubt whether free will or predestination is totally correct, because neither side can be totally sure, right?

(That's why it's called FAITH...We believe it, despite the idiosyncrasies of our own fallen thoughts or wills. Ya see?)

[vir7uous]

So what you two (Talon & NeoJabez) are saying is,

'You are not allowed to have universal truth claims about salvation, free-will, election, predestination. These claims are limiting and puts God in a box, etc, etc...'

But that very statement is a universal truth claim. Youre saying youre right and you know the truth (youre truth being that you cant fully know what the bible claims about salvation, free-will, etc) and im wrong because i cant know the truth.

Im fine with you stating a proposition that we cant know what God has reveled in his word, but i need you to prove it. Preferably from scripture.

[NeoJabez]

If you look at how I said it, I didn't say you 'weren't allowed' that belief. I even said that debating such belief is fine.

But, let me say it this way...

When you focus on one particular part of the mystery of God's Creation, or His Message to the exclusion of all else He has shared, you are missing the broader message.

So, once a debate on a particular issue, or study of one becomes so intense that everything else falls by the wayside, and what you believe or study is your ONE MAIN ISSUE, you begin to lose sight of the other, equally important lessons God has for you.

Allowing one issue to bring you into conflict with other believers is how and why so many people on this earth are in religious conflict.

Truly, it is not about being right, as it is about having faith in it being right. Having faith you are right, and being certain you are right are two different things. Faith essentially means, "I have no proof, but still believe."

The point is, trusting in God is the bottom line. If God does have your destiny all mapped out, love Him that He has allowed you a life with His Plan in control. If God gave you total free-will, then love Him for allowing you to choose Him. Just don't hurt or otherwise injure others simply because they don't see it the same way.